Ashok Dalwai (Orissa Ministry of Mining) Interview

August 2008

By Marie Mainil

I met with Ashok Dalwai, Comissioner-cum Secretary to Govt., Steel and Mines Department, at the Orissa Secretariat in Bhubaneshwar. Below is the transcript of the interview. For further context on this post, please see posts India Field Work, I and II.

Interviewer:
Could you tell me, from your point of view, about water conflicts in Orissa and how you think the farmers' resistance can be addressed?

Interviewee:
I would say the basic conflict relates to livelihood issues. The farmers and those depending upon farming are apprehensive at the loss of their primary asset, that is, the land, and related environment.
In our state or country, for that matter, agriculture is the primary vocation. That is one of the most substantive assets that most families own, however small the size of the land. And that asset is transferred from generation to generation. So, there is an element of security that comes with owning land, and that is built in the psyche of the people. And however inadequate the income from the agriculture land may be, still that is a stable land and a secure source of income on an annual basis. And in addition to the land, they also have access to other kinds of economic activities in a related surrounding, in forests, the community lands, water…animal husbandry that is dependent on these community assets is also heavily tied to the land. The agriculture that is related is like poultry, fishery, etc. So, as we see, their entire life – economic life revolves around access to their farms or their community farms.
Now, secondly, they also lack other kinds of skills that come from education. The literacy and education as such being low, their level of confidence to shift business, shift economic activity is obviously low. The spirit of enterprise or the ability to go for automate enterprise is always a fearful one for them because that always comes with education. The ultimate skills are not many, but it is those skills that will enable them to become viable in non-agriculture-like activities or to go for enterprise in the non-agriculture sector.
So, this kind of a situation is what really creates the apprehension when the land is taken away for other purposes.
And there are also other social issues, once they have displayed. The settlement itself brings about some fear because it fragments the society. Their cozy existence for centuries gets disturbed, and 'til there is an ultimate settlement that brings about the comfort factor over a period of time, it's bound to create some kind of apprehension. Because always village societies are very close-knit societies, and that's how they've been living. It is not just revolving around the limits of income generation. Their security comes also from the exchanges that take place between one family and another living in that society. So, that will include not just social interactions, but also economic exchanges. So, any displacement hits at the root of this sense of security or comfort factor, so I think the conflict essentially is that.

Interviewer:
How do you think this can be addressed? As a secretary in this ministry, how do you assess how much land is needed for industrial development and how much land stays with farmers? Same thing with water. In some sense, what is your idea/definition of development?

Interviewee:
Yes. See, according to me, development is to provide dignified human existence for our society. And when you say dignified human existence, every single person must have access to the minimum needs in terms of housing, food, clothing, and that's, of course, not the definition of man. It's not just biological, so he has got to – being a social animal, a rational man, a thinking man, he would certainly like to have access to the social and psychological and cultural, educational needs that will satisfy him as a man. So, therefore, he should have access to separate incomes, as to not just meet his biological and security needs, basic security needs, but also those that will fulfill his ambitions of – towards self-actualization. That's what the ultimate thing is. So, the people must generate income, I think surplus incomes, which will help them to take up education, to go on culture tours, religious tours, entertainment tours. They will educate their families, okay? So, we have to generate adequate income, and income enhancement will come from, not just a growth that takes place in society, not just a macro economic growth that takes place, but also the distribution part of it. So, therefore, that growth with the development, as we keep talking, what we call inclusive growth, is very essential.
Now, that's possible when the people have access to the assets in some form, and then they have the required education, they have required skills so that they're able to also, not just be rooted, but be mobile without being afraid. So, that degree of mobility has to increase, and that mobility will happen provided they're confident about their own skill levels; they're confident about their educational dreams that come with higher learning. So, this is what they're lacking, so I think our development has to be in that sense. Okay? It has to be that.

Interviewer:
Can you give me some specific examples of what you, as who you are, do in terms of policy and implementation to promote those ideas?

Interviewer:
Yeah. We cannot continue to be only an agricultural society. The reason being, that we have a huge population, and the agricultural line is not lasting. It's not lasting. It doesn't grow. It's constant. So, as we have more and more families needing the same asset, there will be division; there will be fragmentation, and whatever productivity into the state place, there is not enough to meet the rural demands. So, therefore, we have got to shift some percentage of population from agriculture to the non-agriculture sector. So, primarily, the focus in the state today is that the productivity based in agriculture has to increase, and that means appropriate technology and inventions that include cull practices, scientific practices. The productivity eaves have to increase from agriculture. Agriculture is not just the crops, but also the animal husbandry and horticulture. So, that is the farming thing.
The social distribution is always much more egalitarian in this [agricultural] sector. But it's got limitations. There is surplus manpower today engaged in agriculture. So, surplus manpower has to be shifted from agriculture to non-agriculture. So, if you realize that, it is the industrial growth that is just taking place now based on minerals because Orissa is very rich in mineral bed. Given coal and other kind of minerals that we have, the state is promoting industries so that the primary manufacturing sector is the oil manufacturing sector. Once that happens, we will graduate to the second tier of industrialization, say, of engineering, using primary metal-like steel, aluminum, titanium, etc. We will be able to go into the second tier of industrialization, that is, heavy engineering. And as that happens, the focus will be on value addition. That is large number of downstream industries, which actually add value to the smaller and medium-scale enterprises. All this manufacturing sector based on minerals or heavy engineering will obviously be not entirely employment generating because they employ sophisticated technology, or what's called man-replacing technology because they want to compete internationally. You can't be seen adopting 19th century production attempts, you know, and compete in the 21 century. So, however high the capital investment in these sectors, it will help in generating revenue, but it won't help in generating employment more proportionate to the demand we've had.
So, as we further graduate towards the downstream industries to medium-scale industries to small-scale industries for value addition and producing the actual goods and services that can be sold into the international market that's where employment gets generated. So, this is trying to move up the value chain and achieve what is called a mature industry line. It will take some time, but the process is bigger, okay? And as this happens, the service sector whether it is financial sector or entertainment sector or information technology—all this service sector activity that is where the focus is. That means it has to be basic industries, then it will go on to, as I said, the downstream industries. Then we go on to service sector so the people are able to be shifted from agriculture to non-agriculture sector.
If that shift is to take place, then we need to impart the requisite confidence and the skills required for an easy, apprehension-less transition, and that comes from education. That comes from technical skills. Therefore, the state's policy today is to focus on increasing the technical institutes in the state at different levels. The small – at the lowest level it's called ITI, Industrial Training Institutes. Then we have engineering colleges. So, likewise, in pharmacy, in medicine, in management, social sciences, across the sectors, these skills – the institutes that will give the skills to the people are being encouraged. So, that is what is going to make the people confident. Then they can take advantage of what's going to happen in industry. If they don’t have the requisite skill level, then they won't be able to take advantage of it. So, the focus of the state is actually a comprehensive one, but then all of it is going to take time. So, in the interim or even later on, there has to be absolute focus on the poor people.

Interviewer:
Tell me more about the interim time and the focus on the poor people…What is being done?

Interviewee:
There is a lot of emphasis on mentoring activities. That is direct transfer of the needs of the people through area schemes, like we have our pension scheme. The poor families get pension on a monthly basis. Poor families get food security. They get, for example, rice, up to a kilo, highly subsidized. Their rupee in the market is two rupees. Then there are employment events for the people so they have guaranteed work. So, there are a lot of activities, which are built into the policy framework so those outside the frame of development, process of development are taken care of.

Interviewer:
You talked about education programs that sounded accessible to a certain sector of the population, meaning, from what I understood, middle class and up. What about education for the poor people?

Interviewee:
There is education for the poor people. One is that the basic education is free. All up to the age of 14 they get free education.
Then, at the higher levels, in the government institutes there is always subsidized education. I am talking about engineering college, medical college. But even that may be costly for them, so there is a system of offering scholarships to the weaker sections which constitutes a good deal of India’s population. Like last year this department built hostels that will cater to around 100,000 students belonging to this category. So, that way the educational needs of the poor people are being taken care of, and that has to be the focus.
But then since the higher levels of educational institutions are mostly coming up in the private sector where this kind of subsidization is not there, we will help to ensure that more and more scholarships and educational loans are made available to them.

Interviewer:
In terms of resettlement and rehabilitation (R&R), can you explain what you have as a policy and I know they are compensations, but what happens to the families after they have gotten that compensation? Also, what is the relationship between your R&R policy, social corporate responsibility, and the UN Global Compact?

Interviewee:
We have a comprehensive policy called resettlement and rehabilitation policy 2006. It's comprehensive because it addresses all nature of projects, the land acquisition and, therefore, displacement and also, in fact, generally, the society and an account of industries and an account of irrigation projects, an account of infrastructure. So, all categories of mining.
All these things happen. So, this addresses all outcomes.
Then, secondly, it is comprehensive because it tries to address all issues relating to family impacted by displacement or impacted by land acquisition. It does that, first of all, by compensating the loss, compensation is a matter of right because the family surrenders the property. It surrenders the land. It surrenders the house. It surrenders other kinds of infrastructure it may have built on that land, like trees, for example. It has an irrigation system. All these things get surrendered as a result of acquisition. So, it is rational that we compensate going to the marketplace. So, that is the first thing the R&R policy talks about.
Secondly, it talks about principle, which is to include the quality of life of the displaced family such that the post-displacement status must equal the pre-displacement status. That is a presiding principle. So, we are not trying to do something to compensate. We are trying to utilize this situation as an intervention to improve the quality of life. That is a guiding principle. When we talk about this, we have to ensure that the usual economic needs are being taken care of for a family for income generation. We have taken care of their security needs like housing, and we'll take care of the general physical environment in terms of infrastructure. So, this is what the R&R policy is trying to aim at. So, therefore, it talks about giving employment to the family. It talks about training them to become employable elsewhere. It talks about giving them financial assistance so they can find alternate means of living. If they lost agricultural land, they should get adequate financial assistance to enable them to do small business, for example, or to buy land at a market rate elsewhere, and the training will enable them to get employment elsewhere.
So, it's all being done in a comprehensive manner. Then assistance is given for building a house. They're given land, a house site. Then all the community assets, meaning roads, water facilities, community needs, including temples, for example, religious institutions, whether it is a church or a temple or whatever it is.

Interviewer:
You said something about buying the land at market rate.

Interviewee:
Yeah.

Interviewer:
I've met locals who feel that that's not fair because much more profit will be generated on their land. What is your reaction to that?

Interviewee:
I think to put – to make things a little more clear, see, we have what is called a Land Acquisition Act. It's an age-old act, you know. Under the Land Acquisition Act, we can acquire – government can acquire land if it is in public interest. So, when we talk about industries, irrigation projects, infrastructure, etcetera, they're all declared as public interest. Then the individual interest is supposed to be surrendered before the public interest. So, that's so the government gets the right of acquireing the land of individuals. Okay. That was going on. But now, with increasing awareness of compensating adequately, the policy frame of today is that we should let the people decide things, right. So, earlier it was a district collector who would fix the rate based on certain parameters. Today the R&R policy enables the people to negotiate with the investor to fix appropriate rates. We will not just go by what are called benchmark values. Benchmark values may not be reflecting the true market rates. Once we notify a property as a land to be acquired by public interest, then the freedom is given to the landowners or the property owner to negotiate with the potential purchaser, to negotiate the price. So, okay, so therefore, through this process of negotiation and consent, the landowner gets better price than what he was getting earlier.
But to negotiate properly they need education…so there is a weakness there. And now, the level of awareness of society, which is not appropriate, it will take time to address. Now, we cannot change it overnight, but at least it's the government responsibilities to enable that. But we hope that there will be NGOs, there will be Samaritans in the society who will help the society also to do these things. But more important is that the proponents of the industries are certainly told to be more liberal.
The industries have to respect the policies we have talked about. And therefore, we are now talking to them about the industry participating in training, in setting up technical institutes and then giving affected locals liberal financial packages. Our R&R policy also talks about giving affected locals preferential shares so they can have shares in these things. But as you rightly pointed out, it depends upon the financial knowledge of these people as how they are offered the shares. So, they might not have come up with that status yet, but that policy framework at least is there.
Okay. So, still, of course, a lot of improvement will be needed and it will be done, but at least a major step forward has been addressed.

Interviewer:
It's one thing to have policies. It's difficult to implement them. How would you assess their implementation today?

Interviewee:
Yeah. See, the implementation has to be enabled through appropriate instruments.
So, we have institutions for that purpose. We have set up an instrument at the district level where the interest of these people is taken care of. So, we have the local representative, the people's representative, the member of parliament, the member of the legislative assembly, okay. Then we've got the grassroots institution representatives. These are our three tiers of decentralized democracy. So, the representative is a piece that is also represented. Then we have gone beyond elected representatives and have NGOs working in that local area be the members of the committee. Then we also have representatives of self-help groups. You know, like the self-help group which has been instrumental in creating awareness around the womenfolk. A large number of self-help groups of women have been formed. That is a group that is for financial activity and other kinds of social activity. So, those representatives are also there. So, imagine today there is a scope for a simple, uneducated woman from a village who is affected to be sitting on the board with the member of parliament. So, there is, as I said, advocacy, and there is a representative of the affected families also there. We're not leaving it just in the hands of representatives. So, this committee at the district level, is what’s called the RTDAC. The full form is rehabilitation and territory and development advisory committee. It looks out for rehabilitation and with territory development. So, that means there is an institution that has been set up for this purpose. NGOs are there. The people themselves are there. Then the proponent industry prepares its master plan for resettlement and rehabilitation, which is to be approved by this committee.

Interviewer:
How do you think the dialogue between all the different actors can be improved?

Interviewee:
Education .Then there has to be also change in the mindset of the project proponents that all of it is not just for profit generation but there is a sense of social responsibility. So that also has to happen.

Interviewer:
Speaking of social corporate responsibility, what is your opinion of the UN Global Compact? The UN can be very controversial in certain countries. So, I'm wondering if you want to say anything about that.

Interviewee:
What context would you…

Interviewer:
The UN Global Compact focuses on ethical business, more specifically human rights, the environment, labor rights and anti-corruption.

Interviewee:
India is basically a very egalitarian country. It is a country that has got its own constitution. It is accepted into the United Nations Human Rights Commission. It is accepted into all the international treaties on environment and ecology and human rights. Okay? And its own constitution is a very progressive one, which aims at improving the dignity of human life in the country. So, therefore, these treaties etc, which will address issues of equality, address issues of human rights, are all inherent in India, and we accept them. So, we have very stringent equality standards, environmental standards, which are also being monitored by the Supreme Court, not just by governmental executives. We cannot take away the human rights. Therefore, India should not have any problem in meeting the global standards. It rather wants to meet the global standards. If it is not meeting at certain levels, in certain sectors it is because things are changing. Because there is poverty that could be child labor, but then there is a policy framework, there are welfare schemes, government is clear and society is very clear that we should do away with this child labor. It's very clear that we must maintain minimum global equality standard because we would like to have a clean environment. So, India should not have any problem in these things, and we'd rather be trying to meet the international standards. That is the basic.

Interviewer:
Well, a follow-up question on this. I know you have an environmental mission given all the industrial activity that is going on in Orissa, and you have a beautiful state with many natural resources. It can be a difficult thing to keep the environment clean when you're also trying to do fast industrial development. Can you tell me a little bit about the commission and what ways you think the protection of the environment could improve?

Interviewee:
Yeah. See, one thing is about the number of industries and the nature of technology, there is always supervision on that. For example, the state level committee that clears projects for industries is looking at putting a ban on certain plants that we have enough of.
There are certain areas where there has been a concentration of industries. Now, we are studying the carrying capacity of these areas in terms of emissions, in terms of water support, in terms of other environmental fallouts. We are very conscious of what are the number of industries that can come up in a given area, what nature of industries can come up there. And then we have a state pollution control board, which is continuously monitoring the levels of pollutants. The industries have to get clearance from this pollution control before they can go in. So, there are regulatory mechanisms to ensure the global standards are met in terms of environment friendliness and monitoring goes on thereafter.
Then we do not divert forests just like that. If forest land is going to be utilized for industry, then that has to be compensated by setting up land. So, there are very strict laws under the forest conservation act of 1990 and the environment act of 1996, which are very stringent, and then there is a state pollution control board that monitor these things. Then water is concerned also. The water distribution or the allocation between – among various sectors is also decided based on the priorities. Whenever an irrigation project is constructed we will talk about the priorities of using water. Investment agriculture becomes last. So, therefore, only after we meet these basic needs can we talk about the various sort of industry.
Then, of course, we always advise the industries to use the proper technology that will not include pollution, and they must upgrade their technology continuously.

Interviewer:
You just said advise them. Do you encourage them, or do they have to do it?

Interviewee:
For example, when we clear the project initially we always ask them what kind of technology they're using. So, when we clear the project, we have had a look at that. Secondly, when it is implemented, it has had clearance from the state pollution control board, so always we look at the technology being used there.

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